Talking about ‘Taking Space’ with Brittany Webb and Jodi Throckmorton of Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts

Roberta interviews Jodi Throckmorton and Brittany Webb, co-curators of "Taking Space: Contemporary Women Artists and the Politics of Scale" at Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts. They cover feminism, dissent, and the importance of representation in the arts-- especially the importance that museums have a diverse permanent collection.

Jodi and Brittany in front of a decorative background.
Jodi Throckmorton (left) and Brittany Webb (right). Photos courtesy PAFA (edited for Artblog).

On this episode of Artblog Radio, Roberta interviews Jodi Throckmorton, Curator of Contemporary Art at Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts, and Brittany Webb, Evelyn and Will Kaplan Curator of Twentieth Century art and the John Rhoden Collection, about their co-curated exhibition Taking Space: Contemporary Women Artists and the Politics of Scale. The result is an exciting conversation about feminism, dissent, and the importance of representation in the arts and especially in educational institutions. The show is made up with 85% of the museum’s permanent collection, which was possible in large part due to donations– proving the positive impact individuals can have on their local museums!

Scroll down to listen to this conversation on Artblog Radio (here or wherever you get your podcasts), watch it on Youtube, or read it via transcription. The Youtube video includes a selection of images from the exhibition, including an image of the following text:

“Is it a revolution of the deepest order to insert women artists back into rooms that have been structured by their very absence? What would it mean to take this absence as the very historical condition under which the work of women artists is both produced and understood?”


-Helen Molesworth, “How to Install Art As a Feminist” (2010)

“Taking Space: Contemporary Women Artists and the Politics of Scale” November 19, 2020–April 11, 2021. Museum Hours: Thursday & Friday 10 AM–4 PM | Saturday & Sunday 11 AM–5 PM

You can listen to Artblog Radio on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Thank you to Kyle McKay for composing Artblog Radio’s original podcast intro and outro!


Artblog Radio



Roberta Fallon: [00:00:10] Hi, everyone. Thanks for listening to Artblog Radio. I’m Roberta Fallon. I’m your host today. And today I’m very excited to be talking with Jodi Throckmorton, Curator of Contemporary Art at Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts, and Brittany Webb, Curator, Dr. Brittany Webb, Evelyn and Will Kaplan Curator of Twentieth Century art and the John Rhoden Collection.

So welcome both of you ladies. I’m very eager to hear about your new show. So we’re here to talk about “Taking Space,” which opens November 19th at PAFA. We’re going to call Pennsylvania Academy art PAFA, it’s kind of nickname, cause it’s quicker. The full title of the show is “Taking Space: Contemporary Women Artists and the Politics of Scale”.


And it presents art from the museum’s permanent collection. And it’s a very large show. There’s 52 names. I dunno how many pieces of art by these women, but it’s a very, very large show in the Fisher Brooks gallery, which is a very large space to fill. So, I’m looking forward to seeing this when it opens.

And it’s about, well, it has the word “Politics” in the title and “Scale” and “Women.” And I want to get into all those three things, because I think they’re very important, have always been, and it’s really good to talk about women in the context of politics and space. So the show was co-curated by Jodi and Brittany, and the works deal with the female body, size, scale, repetition, and these are– the curators are arguing– signifiers of politics.

So I want to hear first about your curation. Curating, generally speaking, I think is a singular event in a person’s life. There aren’t a lot of co-curated shows, so what was it like to co-curate? And why did you do this as a co-curation?

And I don’t know who wants to start out here and I don’t have any preference.

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:02:25] I can start if that’s okay. And then, and it’s kind of funny because we haven’t talked, I mean, there’s been a few texts back and forth where we’ve talked about what it’s like to work together, but I think this is the first time, so we may completely disagree with each other.

I don’t know. But,

Roberta Fallon: [00:02:38] (laughter) That’d be great.

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:02:39] It’s been, it’s- for me it’s been amazing. I mean, it’s kind of, I think the, the worst nightmare of working together is that it won’t work. You won’t be able to work together. And that at least for me has not been the case. I think that we, we each have strengths that we bring and they’re diff- some are the same strengths and some are different. You know, different time periods, different types of artists. And that has been really helpful.

And I will push back just a tiny bit on the, on the collaborative question about curatorial work being singular or whatever. And that’s certainly, I’ve done a lot of that at PAFA, but there’s, there’s a lot that happens between the three curators at PAFA that’s, that’s I think more collaborative than other institutions, you know? Cause we’re, we’re really interested in, in smushing time periods together, I guess to say. So, you know, Dr. Anna Marley is our Historic American Art Curator. And so it’s not uncommon at PAFA for, you know, things from the 19th century to be paired with things from the 20th century and the 21st century.

So that’s been, that’s been really wonderful to do that at the institution. And then I think that same spirit has really carried through in our partnership, Brittany.

Brittany Webb: [00:03:52] Yeah, I think, I’m echoing, Jodi’s sentiments that we always sort of feel like this work is a team sport.

Roberta Fallon: [00:03:59] (laughter)

Brittany Webb: [00:03:59] Even when everyone doesn’t get credit for their contributions. So what’s been nice about our collaboration with this exhibition, I think is, some of the conversations we’ve had. Where we’ve talked about how and where works fit, or why something doesn’t really fit. There were several iterations of the checklist where we sort of kicked ideas around, back and forth.

And it’s sort of nice to have some, so many of these processes be outside of one’s own head. It’s nice to have the, you know, the multiple perspectives, the different ways of seeing a thing. Jodi has been at PAFA longer than I have. So even thinking about, you know, other histories that we aren’t aware of in terms of the object’s history with the institution, or thinking about other places where we’ve seen artists, these artists discussed, I think that there’s just been more… sort of more information, more conversation than there would be if it was just one person. And I feel like that’s really enriched the project. In addition to the fact that, you know, you have two sets of eyes, you have two sets of hands there.. There’s some work that we actually can kind of divide and conquer in a way that’s really productive.

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:05:12] That’s true too.


Roberta Fallon: [00:05:13] Yeah. Well, Talking about the different time periods, Jodi, the way you mentioned, sometimes you have things from the 21st century, along with the 19th century together, it seems to me in this show, you have mixed up 20th and 21st century. So there’s everything from the Guerrilla Girls who, while they started in the sixties, I believe, and Barbara Kruger and, you know, Ana Mendieta who was even in the fifties, maybe- correct me if I’m wrong. And then we have Emily Brown, contemporary artist working today and, you know, Deborah Willis and Mickalene Thomas. And so it’s all mixed in, it makes it very meaty that you throw things together from different time periods. And don’t just have, it so narrow that you sort of cut off your nose to spite your face, you know?

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:06:09] I hope so. I hope that’s how people feel. and we could have gone. We could have even, you know, originally when the show started, we were back in Abstract Expressionism. Cause there’s some great examples and a few did end up in the show actually. You know, we have a great Lee Krasner, for example, in the show. Nora Jaffe.

But, we ended up kind of moving that date a little forward because there was so much that we wanted to include and believe it or not, the show’s actually expanded beyond Fisher Brooks as well. It’s now in the it’s now upstairs in our beautiful Tuttleman Sculpture Gallery with the, with a wonderful windows and it’s also in the School of Fine Arts Gallery around the stairs.
So we’ve, we’ve, we’ve taken up more space, I guess. (laughter) At PAFA too, which is really great.

Roberta Fallon: [00:06:52] So yeah, let’s talk about that term because as I was thinking about it, it used to be, we would say in a negative way, “You’re just taking up space.” And now I, I want to say the term has a different connotation, which is positive. Taking space is like seizing space. Right. So talk about that and I’m sure that you proactively chose that term for the show.

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:07:19] Brittany, do you want to take this one? Because really the core work is this Deb Willis work that I think sets off that term quite well.

Roberta Fallon: [00:07:27] Yeah.

Brittany Webb: [00:07:27] Yeah. I do think we were really intentional about like this, thank you for the word “seizing.” There’s a, there’s a way that, in conversations around what we call the show, um, we talked about imagery of this kind of taking, the claiming. For a while, I think we were thinking about scale, both as a, noun and a verb. Sort of like this idea of women scaling some of these, these giant mountains, whether that’s the mountain of Art History, trying to master a particular kind of technique, or material…

But also there’s a, there’s this really lovely, Deb Willis image that is the core of the show that’s a lithograph, that I can actually pull up for us because I think it’s just really lovely to think with. it features this work, that is called, “I made space for a good man,” but the, the way that, that work is sort of set up, you know, you have this, this serial images, these three self portraits of Deb Willis as a young pregnant artist.

And it’s framed by these words, “a woman taking space from a good man.” Um, This quote, “you took the space from a good man.” And the final image “I made a space for a good man.” It’s drawn from her experiences as an art student in Philadelphia being told by a male professor, you know, that it was a shame that she was in his class, that she was just taking up space that could have gone to a good male artist, this idea that because she was a woman, she was going to get married, she was going to have children that was going to preclude her from having the kind of arts career.

And even just that kind of thinking that sort of fantasy of a future that hadn’t even arrived yet was enough that this professor decided that she didn’t even deserve a space in the classroom or a space in an art program. And even thinking about both the physicality of that, and the sort of the idea of denying a young woman, even the dream space- like the idea to have the space of her mind to imagine a particular kind of future really kind of.. That sat with us in a way that, that it’s sort of a touchstone or an anchor to think about all of the ways that women artists: in terms of medium; in terms of demanding space in a classroom, or in a program, or in a studio, or in a conversation; is, is a great sort of rallying cry for this exhibition. So think about how, you know, it’s very political to, to hold that story and to have a kind of career and to reclaim that in, in her artwork.

And she also, you know, in this image, she’s, she’s reclining and she’s pregnant with Hank Willis Thomas who also went on to become a celebrated American artist. So there’s, there’s a lot, that’s, there’s so rich about this work and that’s rich in the show. So to think about what it is to take up space, the fact that that, that, that in some cases does have a negative connotation, but there are a lot of ways that I think the artists in this exhibition have really flipped that, and claimed a lot of space and taken up a lot of space in a way that is intellectually productive and also visually stunning.

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:10:31] Yeah. And and, I mean, where would we be if Deb Willis took that as a, you know, this, she got this comment, negative comment- “Done.” Instead of a charge, really? Like, where would we be in art history without her scholarship? Think about all the art, all the photographs that we’d be missing out on.

And, you know, we’d be in a very different place, I think, without Deb Willis. So, thankfully she did take it as a charge and I think that’s something that unites the artists in the show, it’s that charge to, to claim space.

Roberta Fallon: [00:11:02] Yeah. So let’s talk more about the show and who’s in the show because it seems to me that there are artists like Deb Willis, who overtly take space and use the concept of empowered space for women- obviously Guerilla Girls, Mickalene Thomas, Betye Saar… and then there are those who are pivoting to your point of scale. You know, the scale shifts that, might include taking space. Such as Emily Brown, who I mentioned before, who tends to work very large. She’s making landscape, paintings and… very large, very beautiful. And Vija Celmins who works tiny, really small, very microscopically. Uh, Mia Rosenthal also works on the microscopic level.

So those are making statements of scale. So talk about that a bit, because I thought that was very interesting to open it up to a discussion of politics and scale.

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:12:07] Yeah. Yeah. And, and the Emily Brown one is an interesting one because believe it or not, we didn’t choose one of the bigger Emily Brown works, which is why we chose a beautiful, I think I shouldn’t say that, but I think we chose a really beautiful piece by Emily that as far as I know it hasn’t been up since, since I’ve been there. But, it’s a, it’s a shadow image of her, which is a portrait. So some of those, so in the case of Emily, it was, it was more about, sort of taking space, putting yourself in that, in that artwork and taking space in that way. But I think that the, you know, Mia’s Mia’s work in the show is, is all about the Hadron Collider.

So it was, it was, it was a piece that we had up in the Morris gallery, I don’t know, some five or six years ago at this point. But I think there’s a, there’s a buildup in gesture that happens or buildup in mark making this better way to think about it. I think in both Mia’s work and Vija Salomon’s work that, that I think, I don’t know, gets you to a different, it gets you to a more expansive, even if it’s more conceptual, place. That’s not about. Sort of physical size of the parameters of the piece, but more, more of that kind of buildup, almost an obsessive kind of Mark making thing.

So I think we, we wanted to make the point that, that, I think scale can mean a lot of different things. I mean, we have scale as a dimensional quality of course. but there’s something about scale conceptual scale, even maybe it’s the way to think of it or.. Yeah, that expansiveness as well. But, but I think that that you’re right and catching on that. some of there’s a, there’s a, there’s a variety in what politics means to these artists.

And to me, that’s one of the really great qualities of the show. something that I had to learn very early on in my work with, women, artists is thinking about, how we all, and a lot of the artists have very complex and different views on feminism. And, so, so I mean, Joan Brown is someone, for example, who we have an incredible self portrait by her in the exhibition that is essentially a, a parody of what people think of female artist is.

So it’s shows Joan Brown and like a 1950s cocktail dress. In high heels, painting a dainty, still life of a flower in gloves, you know, and then you look on the floor and there’s just paint everywhere. So that’s the clue of, this is how Joan Brown really worked on the bottom here.

And, then, then we’ve got this parody of a female artist. But, you know, whereas I look at this work and I think how incredibly feminist it is from my perspective, Joan was of a generation and of a time, and, and her own personal choice was to, was to sort of more, act as a feminist rather than be sort of political about it.

So what I, I think we did make some, you know, not, I would say, I don’t know, we didn’t talk to every artist and ask them, “Are you a feminist?” But I think there’s a, there’s a variance in, in that approach and, and their relationship to it. And I hope that that actually. Makes people realize how even complicated the idea is that we have a show of only women artists.

Like what does that even mean? You know, Brittany talks a lot about the Helen Molesworth quote, which I don’t know if we have, so I’m sorry for putting you on the spot about this Britney, but, but about what it means to be a feminist curator or to, to lay out a show in a feminist way. So. You know, what are, what’s the relevance of having a group show of only women?

Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Like I think, I think I don’t I’m Brittany, I don’t know. I feel like we’re, we’re kind of open to that consideration and, and criticism too. Cause we talked a lot about what that meant, about it being a woman, a female only show and, and oriented orient, orienting that in that way.

Brittany Webb: [00:15:56] Yeah. And I think one of the things that makes this really interesting is, where Jodi and I both self identify as feminists. And so we have taken feminist readings of works in ways that it’s possible the artists didn’t necessarily intend. But we also are being really expansive about what we imagine feminism looks like in museum practice.
And so. To I think about the many iterations of this show that there were earlier versions of this show, where at first we were thinking we were just taking large scale work, only the biggest, most ambitious pieces. And then we thought about the politics of, You know, Makerspace and studio space and who that would leave out.

If we, if we think about the fact that, you know, studio space is part of an artist’s practice that is linked to a political economy that does not always benefit women. So what does it look like to decide that women who have made work that is ambitious and other ways, that isn’t necessarily about making the largest possible painting… Who does it leave out? People who don’t have access for economic reasons, or geographic reasons to the space that allows them to make large scale work or the space that allows them, or the money that, you need to, to afford those kinds of materials.

And so think expansively about politics, like the politics of political economy, the politics of arts education. If we’re, if we’re. If we’re sort of taking our cues from artists who are thinking about those things and their work, even if it’s not an artist statements, or even if it’s not signaled in the title of the work, their interviews where people talk about this and they talk, they talk about the ways that they’ve navigated through this.

The idea that making work about domesticity is it’s not necessarily a small thing. That that can be read as, as a large ambitious practice. What, what are, what are our sort of feminist impulses around apprehending that work as just as important or just as interesting? Or just as intellectually rich, as some, as other kinds of works that have been read differently, in arts, in institutional spaces?

And so this Helen Molesworth essay, “How to Install Art as a Feminist” is something that we’ve been thinking with. You know, this question of what does it mean to take women’s absence in museums as the very historical condition under which the work of women, artists is both produced and understood. And we are also thinking about the ways that that work has been produced and misunderstood and what opportunities we have in this, in this exhibition, that’s thinking about the politics of space, the politics of scale, the politics of making, the politics of what it looks like to, to produce ambitious work as an artist, what we could do with that in an institution. and I also want to sort of signal the fact that this is a permanent collection show.

We’re also thinking about the politics of institutional history building. What does it look like to have this be a show where we are committed to showing works that we have a responsibility to steward the care and the long-term sort of health, both physically and intellectually.

To not do a show where we’ve invited a ton of loans, or a lot of temporary works that will be in, in our galleries on view temporarily and then sort of get dispersed and in some cases lost to history. You know, there is a history of that in Art History.

What’s our responsibility as curators, to sort of push against that tide, to make it possible for, you know, 50 years from now for, for people to be thinking with very different kinds of artworks and very different kinds of historical legacies. What can we do to sort of push against that right now?

Roberta Fallon: [00:19:34] I really liked what you said and it makes me think the show has a universality to it, also, in its largeness. That goes really well with our time right now of inclusivity, the need for inclusivity and pointing to the future.

So a show that points in a direction like this is an example. You know?

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:19:58] That’s lovely. I love that. I love to think that could, that could happen.

Roberta Fallon: [00:20:02] Yeah. I think it could, you guys got to seize, seize the space and take it . Moving it that way.

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:20:11] There you go, you’re right (laughter)

Roberta Fallon: [00:20:12] So. Do you want to say anything more about the show? What else are you excited about in the show before I get to a couple of questions about PAFA in general?

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:20:21] Yeah. I mean, not to, not to belabor the permanent collection point, but that’s something that I think we feel super, super proud of. because most- I cannot remember- the 85% Brittany? Is that right? 85% of the work in the show, it was collected over the last five to six years?

Brittany Webb: [00:20:39] Yeah.

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:20:40] So I hope, I don’t know that that’s what people will walk away from knowing? That, that we’re, we’re committed to this, you know, and, it’s important to us that, that they’re not one off shows that, that, women, artists have a legacy at PAFA.

And, we’re really proud of that.

Roberta Fallon: [00:20:59] How about you, Brittany, anything to add about the show in particular that you love and are so proud of?

Brittany Webb: [00:21:06] And I mean, I think I really love how expansive it is. I love the, you know, it’s visually stunning. I will say that in this roller coaster of a year, that we’re having, even installing the show has been a bit of a bright spot. I think it’s been, you know, there are a million ways. 2020 has been a very difficult year in the world, in this country, in the city of Philadelphia, and in our sector. And thinking about just what it feels like to stay in the gallery is looking at work as it’s being installed.

I think we have been feeling the ways our eyes have been a little bit starved for looking at work by artists this year, engaging artists this year. You know, there’s this gorgeous, metal sculpture by Alison shots that’s being installed in Tuttleman gallery. That is. just, just a stunning piece to think with, you know, what it is to make sculpture out of a heavy material, like metal, but suspended from the ceiling in a way that is it’s meant to be sort of light and reflective visually.

Like that duality is really fascinating to think with that. If you think of large scale installation, metal sculpture, you know, when somebody calls that up for me, I. Think Richard Serra. And so to see an artist take on large scale metal sculpture and to make it so light that it lifts off the floor, that it reflects the light in the room, across the room and sort of shimmering.

And it’s almost soft. You know, this, you almost, you like want to touch it or push against it. It, it doesn’t feel like… like a monument in the way that we think of large scale sculptural monuments, it feels like something you want to engage with. You almost want to move with it. And that kind of, you know, even just getting to take that in visually to sort of stand in front of it, like, wow.

I mean, there’s a, there’s a kind of breath of fresh air that we need in 2020. And I also think that there, there are things that that does for us and thinking about… Ways that artists are always, re-imagining our approaches to how we’re thinking about the material, physical conditions that we live in. And we absolutely need to be doing that kind of thinking in 2020 to be a sort of forward facing future thinking.

There’s, there’s a way that that kind of becomes, I don’t know, philosophically exciting. What does it feel like to sit with artists and think about all the ways that we can re-imagine the material, physical conditions of our lives right now?

Roberta Fallon: [00:23:32] Mm. Hmm. Wow. Yeah. Are you guys– this is for both of you– are you optimistic about the future of museums in general?

We’re in a really hard space right now where museums are having to rethink their budgets because of recession, management of the collection, how to interact with the community. It’s it’s hard. So are you optimistic? What do you think?

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:24:03] I mean, yes, I’m optimistic, but there’s a lot of work to do. You know? In some ways I think that what’s happening has only brought it out in full view, in a way? Like, I think that there’s a lot of us that, maybe we’re trying to do work in our small way, the best we can.

I mean, it can, it can always be better and we could always improve. Certainly, and, and listen more. But I think that the really great thing that’s happened, frankly, that, that maybe makes me more optimistic is that I think it’s also hit a different level of awareness. and that’s at the board level.

That’s also at the, at the press level where people are paying more attention to what museums are doing. So, you know, in, in, in dark, these kind of, when I go down a hole, because there were moments this summer definitely where I was… Feeling less optimistic. you know, I try to say that that maybe it means that people are paying more attention to museums, you know? I’m hoping that means that people still see value and want museums to pull through.

But there’s a lot of hard work to do, at every single level of, of most organizations, I think, to make some, to make some big changes and, and I think. You know, in the 21st century, a lot of that is and make big, big changes fast. It’s just harder to do. I don’t know what you think, Brittany.

Roberta Fallon: [00:25:25] Yeah.

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:25:26] Yeah,

Brittany Webb: [00:25:27] No. I mean, I think the fact that there are, we’re having sort of it larger conversations and by larger, I mean, there are more people participating in the conversations, they’re happening in more spaces: the space of the press, the space of museums themselves; people are talking about these things, on social media.
I think that this is a reflection of a push that’s been happening for a long time. And so there’s a kind of optimism to the fact that no one is really in a position to pretend this conversation isn’t happening anymore, which maybe wasn’t the case 20 years ago. I also think that there are… more, you know, when we say institutions have a lot of work to do, I’m always thinking, you know, we are institutions. If you are a member of a museum, you are part of that institution. If you work in a museum, you were part of that institution.

That means that we all have a lot of work to do, but thank God there are so many of us who actually want to do it and are willing to do it. And there are so many things that you can do as a member or a visitor, as a staff member, as a constituent, as an arts lover, to take on that work of an institution, not just sort of pushing against it. But if you imagine yourself to be in collaboration with an institution or in collaboration with a community, there are a ton of things you can do.

And so we’re, you know, we’re also lucky, I think, in this exhibition to have, You know, a little less than half of the works that are in the permanent collection on view in taking space, were gifts to the collection. And I don’t think that. I don’t think that people think about the politics of that.

But there is something that you can have powerful. We, I think are exhibiting, that folks have had powerful impact on what’s possible for an institutional collection. And what’s possible for an exhibition by gifting work, that maybe an institution wouldn’t have otherwise been interested in. and that also, I think sort of speaks to this moment of recession, sort of, what does it look like to think about the future of collections if you have small budgets? And I think that there’s a way that, you know, where we’re lucky to be in community with so many passionate art lovers, art collectors, stewards of art in their own sort of communities and lives.

That have, have worked with us in this way, that benefits, I think everyone, That that’s one small way that I think, you know, individuals can have major impact on what the future of museum work can look like.

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:27:50] Yeah. And I mean, when you think about the, you know, Linda Lee Alters gift, she gave her, her, her collection is all art by women.

She gifted that to PAFA, but you think about their Sargenti family and the collection of work by African-American artists that they gave to PAFA. This was, excuse me for not knowing the exact time period, but 10, 15 years ago. And that set the path for frankly, the work that we’re doing. So, those, those gifts and, and subsequent gifts too. And frankly things as well, but, Now big museums are really excited to have, but at the time when, when these things were gifted, I think PAFA was adventurous and saying, yes, we do want this work that no one else was looking at that now, you know, we’re, we’re so fortunate to have,

Brittany Webb: [00:28:35] And, you know, as a museum and an artist, School. I think we’re always thinking about students and students as people who, as arts makers and as future Arts Historians, um, will be the next phase of what this field looks like.

All that work feels really important. So it means that our, our young artists or young makers and scholars are getting to study this work, in the collection on view, in exhibitions, thinking with faculty, and thinking with curators about what’s important, that, that, you know, if I can go back to what, we love about that Deb Willis lithograph, what would it have looked like for her? If her. experience of art school had been with this kind of collection, with these kinds of shows, and with these kinds of, you know, young feminist curators, who were sort of pushing this work as the kind of work we want to see in the field? The field might look differently and I mean, I thank God that she wasn’t pushed out of it.

But we also want to be part of creating a world where no one is being fished out of the field at these sort of early points. And this is one way we think we can, we can sort of push it back.

Roberta Fallon: [00:29:37] This is a conversation I would like to extend for another hour and a half, but I think we can’t do that. Thank you so much, Brittany Webb and Jodi Throckmorton for talking with me.

This has been an Artblog Radio delight. And thanks everybody for listening and we’ll see you again. Next time. Bye-bye

Jodi Throckmorton: [00:30:00] Thank you!

Brittany Webb: [00:30:01] Thank you.